New cheat stuff for MAME .125 U3 ???

If you are having problems finding or using cheats for an Emulator (particularly MAME/MESS) or have found a trick that you wish to share this is the place to do it. But please read the Cheat FAQ first.
User avatar
Pugsy
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 12:59 am
Location: North Wales, UK.
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times
Contact:

Post by Pugsy »

To be honest, I think the damage has been done already. This 'rewrite' is nothing of the sort - probably 80% of the code is identical or very similar if you convert the old cheat.c into the mame coding convention. ShimaPong is not programming he's hacking and badly at that. At the moment I think they may be better stripping out the cheat engine completely so that it's just in unofficial builds.

Some of the devs appear to think that because somebody is working on it, it's getting better. The fact that cheat.c has gained like 90k does not suggest that the cheat engine is being simplified ("because it's a mess" to quote one dev). Quite the reverse, with the abortion of how he's mangling the cheat format as well as anything else it looks like the XML format is being favoured - which will frankly be a nightmare for maintenance. But on the plus side when SP see's all the buggy non-conforming cheats that will be spread in individual XML files his head will explode :P

I've frankly had enough of all the politics, like I said if I knew the cheat engine was such a big issue I would have tackled it myself. I think a limited cheat engine for most users which would just allow enabling/disabling cheats and setting activation keys along with a cheat.idx file so the entire cheat file doesn't get parsed to load the cheats would have been a possible solution. With the full cheat engine just a drop in for self-compilers.

But it's all too late now. I am going to halt any work on the cheat file and have currently no intention of touching the MAME cheat engine either, probably until at least next year. If things are no better by that time it will probably be for good. Been at this over 10 years and that's probably long enough for anybody....too long for Shimapong's liking that's for sure.

BTW, thanks for still compiling the old one (with required ajustments) as we REALLY need it
I will try and keep the old cheat.c working as long as possible, even if I have no intention of using it in anger.
Pugsy

Servicing your cheating needs since 1985 8)

Grab the latest cheat collection:
MAME 0.259 XML cheat collection (6 OCTOBER 2023) from http://www.mamecheat.co.uk or direct from:-
https://mega.nz/file/q4dHGZ6K#i-EUiqIjH ... KMz7hnbTfw (ZIP Archive 3.76MB)
stephh
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Paris, France

Post by stephh »

Pugsy wrote:To be honest, I think the damage has been done already. This 'rewrite' is nothing of the sort - probably 80% of the code is identical or very similar if you convert the old cheat.c into the mame coding convention. ShimaPong is not programming he's hacking and badly at that. At the moment I think they may be better stripping out the cheat engine completely so that it's just in unofficial builds.

Some of the devs appear to think that because somebody is working on it, it's getting better. The fact that cheat.c has gained like 90k does not suggest that the cheat engine is being simplified ("because it's a mess" to quote one dev). Quite the reverse, with the abortion of how he's mangling the cheat format as well as anything else it looks like the XML format is being favoured - which will frankly be a nightmare for maintenance. But on the plus side when SP see's all the buggy non-conforming cheats that will be spread in individual XML files his head will explode :P

I've frankly had enough of all the politics, like I said if I knew the cheat engine was such a big issue I would have tackled it myself. I think a limited cheat engine for most users which would just allow enabling/disabling cheats and setting activation keys along with a cheat.idx file so the entire cheat file doesn't get parsed to load the cheats would have been a possible solution. With the full cheat engine just a drop in for self-compilers.

But it's all too late now. I am going to halt any work on the cheat file and have currently no intention of touching the MAME cheat engine either, probably until at least next year. If things are no better by that time it will probably be for good. Been at this over 10 years and that's probably long enough for anybody....too long for Shimapong's liking that's for sure.


It appears that Aaron might consider the idea of recoding something (including a converter for your database) "from scratch" which will use the XML format (I don't know exactly how though - we discuss about it) ...

Since you know almost of "specific" types of cheats (the ones I don't use in my cheat databases and that didn't exist before Ian's rewrite), it would be cool if you could help us about what the various ?#! bits do ...

The main idea shall be to have a UI for cheat users and sort of debugger "console" for cheat finders now that the debugger is integrated in standard builds ... Remember, I spoke about that 7 or 8 years ago when DOS MAME and Juergen's old debugger still existed !

I've mailed your cheat.txt file to the list, but you'd be please to read this (becoming long) thread on MAME Chat Board ( http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sh ... art=1&vc=1 ) and try to help/comment where you can ...

It would be a pain if you quit the scene after 10 years of hard work (especially before transmitting your knowledge and experience) :( Please don't bother Shimapong and ignore him ...

Image Steph from The Ultimate Patchers Image
pepinos
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:47 am

Post by pepinos »

pugsy from now on i will use only the MAMEUIFX emulator
they reclaim that they use only the old cheat dat prototype
ZED ZED
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:57 pm

Post by ZED ZED »

Pugsy, I'm very sorry you've been treated like this by the MAME management. To not have consulted you about this was not just bad manners, it showed a total disregard for your many years of service (and expertise) to the cheat.dat.

Worse still, you turn up yourself in a thread 'discussing' these changes with the devs who didn't appear to 'listen' to you. They gave the appearance of making change for the hell of it, by persons who don't really know as much as they think. :x

Done properly Mr Giles would have contacted you and discussed this before any changes were made. I hope they return to the old format ASAP.

God bless you Pugsy, your work will outlast their meddling :D As for me, I won't be updating my MAME anymore.
User avatar
VisitntX
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:37 pm
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Post by VisitntX »

I must say that I agree with Pugsy, having individual files for cheats will be a nightmare to handle. I always liked the one file database.

Besides I don't think the mame team really cares about consulting. If someone claims that can reprogramm something it's more like they will let him/her do it. And then buggy things happens.

And the old format seems to be lost forever. It was like ten years or more since Pugsy has started working in the cheats for mame antill today, and I think this is one of the things why lot of people play it. And then let one who besides his knowledge and contributions has nothing more to do that to break the engine like that.

But as always there are things that the mame team not think. When they let him do it they didn't think that he could break it, or change it that way that the codes must be reconverted. Or they thought it, but didn't care, after all if conversion should be done tell the one who keep the file if he want he must do it himself.
Dizzy my future, silly my way.
Genesis XML Files
MRMIdAS
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: Sheffield, England

Post by MRMIdAS »

Jesus H christ, they already f##k upn the highscore system, not they want to f##k the cheat system the same way?!?!?!?!

Sorry for the harsh language, but something needs to be done about this, weather it's petitioning unofficial build makers to use the old cheat system, or at least provide a version with the old cheat system integrated. or to directly petition the MAME devs themselves (although I doubt the latter will do much good).

Something needs to be done about this bullshit, and we need to be a strong enough community to stand against it.
Win if you can
Lose if you must
ALWAYS CHEAT!
User avatar
Pugsy
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 12:59 am
Location: North Wales, UK.
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times
Contact:

Post by Pugsy »

Unfortunately, it's too late as the damage has been done. The devs weren't happy with the cheat engine anyway. So I'm sure it was only a matter of time (it was to tied in to deeply to the mame ui - which the devs wanted to change). But it's demise was hastened by the hacking of a former forum member. We all have our ideas on his motives, regardless the result is from 0.126u1 there will be no cheat engine to later in the dev cycle (possibly something basic by 0.127?).

As a temporary measure the possibility of re-adding the working cheat engine into any MAME after 0.126 for private builds is unknown at this time - but it's thought highly unlikely as there's apparently been massive changes already.

I will do at least one final release of a old style 0.126 cheat.dat file, and then a xml cheat.zip will probably follow. The cheat engine may actually prove to be a lot better (who knows?). But, I was used to the 'hacky' single file cheat format and I know very little about XML - it's just a big unknown.

My gut reaction at the moment is that I probably won't be doing any regular updates to the XML cheat.zip. But then nobody (including myself) a few years back would have given you odds on me doing any more cheat.dat releases.

I don't believe baiting any of the mamedevs is going to achieve anything apart from making any new cheat engine to slip or get scrapped - and believe me nobody is more p***ed off then me. Something will be better than nothing, and remember it would have happened sooner or later.
Pugsy

Servicing your cheating needs since 1985 8)

Grab the latest cheat collection:
MAME 0.259 XML cheat collection (6 OCTOBER 2023) from http://www.mamecheat.co.uk or direct from:-
https://mega.nz/file/q4dHGZ6K#i-EUiqIjH ... KMz7hnbTfw (ZIP Archive 3.76MB)
MRMIdAS
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:24 pm
Location: Sheffield, England

Post by MRMIdAS »

I wouldn't have minded if it was getting worked on behind the scenes, then released whenthe time is right (read: When it fekkin WORKS!). BUT i'd also like the opportunity to have the cheat engine go "d'you want to use the OLD (IE the one we use) cheat style, or the new one? and pointing out that some cheats may be incompatable with each version, therefore keeping both groups happy.

OR provide support for both, you search a cheat, if it's a bog standard one, that can be done with the old system, it is added to the existing cheat.dat (possibly moved in to /cheat) if it needs the new crap, it's put into the new format XML? and both are parsed on game boot.
Win if you can
Lose if you must
ALWAYS CHEAT!
stephh
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Paris, France

Post by stephh »

MRMIdAS wrote:I wouldn't have minded if it was getting worked on behind the scenes, then released whenthe time is right (read: When it fekkin WORKS!).
The problem is that the first changes (from MAME 0.125u2) weren't initiated by an official Dev ... I had no time to check them and Aaron believed they wouldn't change the world ... Unfortunately, it has been proven that it has broken too many things (even the basic ones) ...

Now, with the UI rewrite, it's impossible to "fix" the cheat.c file to please the compiler, thus the idea of writing a new cheat engine from scratch with the benefit of the now included debugger stuff ... And as a "side-effect", Aaron decided to have a "better" format which is XML in multiple single files ...

We're working hard on it with Pugsy to get a format that will cover almost anything from his current cheat.dat file and we really hope that Aaron will like it (we don't care that much the way he wants to code it) ... In the meantime, that means that won't be cheats anymore from MAME 0.126u1 (deadline for a newly working cheat engine and XML cheat files seems to be 0.127) ...
BUT i'd also like the opportunity to have the cheat engine go "d'you want to use the OLD (IE the one we use) cheat style, or the new one? and pointing out that some cheats may be incompatable with each version, therefore keeping both groups happy.

OR provide support for both, you search a cheat, if it's a bog standard one, that can be done with the old system, it is added to the existing cheat.dat (possibly moved in to /cheat) if it needs the new crap, it's put into the new format XML? and both are parsed on game boot.
We must admit that cheat.c was more than a nightmare to maintain (even after Ian's initial rewrite circa MAME 0.60) and it was too dependant on the UI (and LOTS more after Shimapong started to touch it) ... So we can't have BOTH the "good way" Aaron has in mind and the "crappy way" (especially because it is broken) as it is now ...

Fortunately, some Devs require the cheats to improve their drivers, and that's why cheats won't be discarded as were the high-scores (which were more a hack than anything based on the initial - pre MAME 0.36 - cheat engine) ... We only hope that there will still be some cheat finders because Pugsy and I can't do anything (especially for games we don't want to hear about) ...

That said, note that I most of time still use the initial format (fortunately, it can be easily converted) and there are still stuff I don't understand in the current one (fortunately, Pugsy helps me with his "flags") ! I let you imagine the change for me ... But as the new XML format shall be readable by anyone without a big documentation, I hope that it won't be a nightmare to add new cheats using a text editor ...

Image Steph from The Ultimate Patchers Image
ZED ZED
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:57 pm

Post by ZED ZED »

Thanks for the update stephh. I'm greatly cheered that you and Pugsy are working on this. If you can make the format adaptable the cheat.dat is safe and will remain functional - hooray!

God bless you with his favour! :D

It's perhaps worth saying; even in the worst case scenario the cheat.dat will still stand as an unrivalled, massively comprehensive collection of cheats that WORK on all versions of MAME prior to 125. That is not lost, nor will it ever be. :lol:
stephh
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Paris, France

Post by stephh »

ZED ZED wrote:Thanks for the update stephh. I'm greatly cheered that you and Pugsy are working on this. If you can make the format adaptable the cheat.dat is safe and will remain functional - hooray!
Don't be mistaken, the current cheat.dat is DEAD (it's only a question of days until MAME 0.126u1 is out) !

What we are doing with Pugsy is to find an XML format/structure so most cheats (if not all) can be converted so we'll be able to use the converted cheats again when the new cheat engine is out (this might be for MAME 0.127) ...
It's perhaps worth saying; even in the worst case scenario the cheat.dat will still stand as an unrivalled, massively comprehensive collection of cheats that WORK on all versions of MAME prior to 125. That is not lost, nor will it ever be. :lol:
FYI, if you can compile your own version, you might still be able to run the working cheat engine with MAME 0.126 ...

Image Steph from The Ultimate Patchers Image
ihapoi
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:13 pm

Post by ihapoi »

this shimbo-something is just trolling his way through.
I don't know what his purpose was , but he definetly failed at it
from the moment (the special love moment :D) he didn't come up with a conversion utility and ignoring ten years ( f**king 10 years ) of work
(Well not constant :P , but ... continued ).



I'll stick to the old cheat engine.

***rest of message moved to new thread since it was offtopic.
Post Reply